IS SATURDAY
SABBATH WORSHIP NECESSARY FOR THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?
Beginning
today at 4:30 Mountain Time
D.c. Welker
will be arguing in the affirmative of the position and opposing him will be
Simon Benn
Hello
everyone and welcome to the debate!
This will be
a controlled, informal debate.
Absolutely no one else will be allowed to post on this debate besides myself
and the two debate participants.
Please like and share this thread so you can stay up on it as well as spread
the word.
It will be the new pinned post for the page.
The opponents
will have a 1000 word opening speech each. Then they will have 24 hours to
provide 1000 word rebuttals each.
During that 24 hr. period, I'll comment a bit and will also invite some
audience feedback in the form of short one or two paragraph comments or
questions that can be sent directly to my Facebook messenger account. These
will be considered for posting to the debate thread and also to provide outside
perspective from the audience to the debaters.
Once their
rebuttals have have been posted, we will attempt to have a cross examination
section of the debate, where each participant will have three questions each
for the other. Answers must be given within 3 minutes, and another admin may
have to assume the role of moderator at this point as I may be offline.
Either way, we would really like to make that work.
It is here that additional questions may or may not be posted from the audience
as we see fit.
After that,
each man will have 24 hours to write up a 600 word closing argument.
When those
have been posted, the debate will be at an end.
Thank you,
and may the truth win.
D.c. Welker
1000 WORD OPENING STATEMENT IN THE AFFIRMATIVE
Jesus Abolished the new moon Sabbath when he died on the cross.
The New moon Sabbath served 1 reason and one reason only. The people of Israel
would repent on the new moon Sabbaths to the priest in the temple and the
priest would confess the sin to the animal sacrificed in the presence of God.
The blood of the animal was sprinkled on the 7 candlestick (menorah) and
outside the veil that represented the veil between heaven and earth.
The priest then consumed the flesh of the animal whereby taking the sins of the
people upon himself. Once a year the sanctuary was cleansed by sacrificing a
goat after the priest placed his hands upon the goat's head (where we get the
term scapegoat, which represented Satan). He would the kill the goat in the
most holy place in the sanctuary of the temple which contained the Ark of the
covenant and the spirit of God The priest sprinkled blood on the ark which
represents the seat of God.
This ritual was a representation of things to come.
in the last supper, Jesus told his disciples to eat of his flesh and drink his
blood, whereby the sacrifice took the sins of man upon himself. When he died on
the cross, there was an earthquake and the ground cracked.
Jesus Christ bled and his blood dripped through the crack in the ground and
onto the ark of the covenant buried directly beneath where he was crucified.
The veil between heaven and earth was torn forever.
Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and we no longer have to sacrifice animals to
repent our sins. This is why Jesus said He is the Sabbath. He is the new moon
Sabbath because we no longer have need to sacrifice to repent our sins.
The new moon Sabbath sacrifice was abolished forever. This did not get rid of
the commandments. Only the need to sacrifice for forgiveness because Jesus did
that for us and the Holy Father accepted it in payment for our sins.
When Jesus Rose, he was named High priest of the order of Melchizedek forever
and ever. At the end of this world, Jesus will place all the sins of mankind
onto Satan (the scapegoat) and cast him into the lake of fire whereby
destroying sin forever.
This is the mercy of Jesus Christ. The new moon Sabbath was abolished, not the
Sabbath day.
Simon Benn, 1000 WORD OPENING STATEMENT IN THE
NEGATIVE
The issue of the Sabbath can be a hot topic debate, and both sides can be
emotionally involved.
Apparently, I'm a cold heartless person according to some people who have known
me, (mentioning no names) and as such should therefore be appropriately able to
look at this as the facts state.
The questions I will try and answer are, Should we as New Testament believers
keep the Sabbath as Israelites and those who insist on following the
commandments of the Old Testament Law did, or do we go with
"practice" and worship on any day, as we have done for as long as I
can remember?
The bible is a little on the vague side of what constitutes work on the
Sabbath.
What were the guidelines they followed?
Is the most popular accusation, that Sunday Worship is a Roman Catholic
invention, true?
Are those who gather on a Sunday a servant of the papacy?
What is the real day for worship if there is such a thing or has the church
always gathered on a Sunday?
Let's have a great discussion and grow in understanding.
The greatest accusation leveled at Sunday worship, is that the Emperor
Constantine (and sometimes the pope, depending on who you talk to) have changed
the day from an observance of Saturday worship to an observance of Sunday
worship, so that the new religion (Christianity) was palatable by being in line
with Pagan traditions.
History does show us that in the year 321 A.D., Constantine decreed as leaders
did to set the way, "On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates
and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed"
(Codex Justinianus lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the
Christian Church, Vol. 3, p. 380, note 1).
We see that Emperor Constantine declared that the day of the sun, (Sunday)
would be the OFFICIAL day that the Roman Empire would rest, thus setting the course
for what will be the norm. What it does not say, that they were already
observing a Saturday Sabbath or that Constantine in his great Roman egocentric
ways decided to change what was already in place to a wonderful new and
improved day of worship.
If anything we can presume that there was no official day of worship
established every week for the Romans. But I would like to clarify that point
by minds far greater than mine.
In line with how politicians have generally been known to think through the ages
as well as today, I think it's safe to say that we can apply those same
standards to Constantine, which are:
1. he was here to stay in power,
2.run an empire,
and 3. try his best to keep his citizens happy. After all, politicians tend to
jump on the popular trend of the day and find a way to make themselves popular
with it.
Would it be fair to assume then, that Constantine like every other human had an
ego?
Would it be fair to assume that Sunday as a day of rest was already being
observed hence the decree by Constantine?
I think it would be fair to assume such but can we can we document it in the
early records of the disciples.
Yes in fact we can.
In the Epistle to the Magnesians by St Ignatius, a disciple of John we read:-
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things
have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but
living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung
up again by Him and by His death—whom some deny, by which mystery we have
obtained faith"
Justin Martyr, a disciple of Polycarp, wrote in his Comments on weekly worship
from chapter 67 of First Apology.
"And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the
wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all
things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son
Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who
live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs
of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time
permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs,
and exhorts to the imitation of these good things.
Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is
ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner
offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people
assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation
of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a
portion is sent by the deacons.
And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what
is collected is deposited with the president, who succors the orphans and
widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and
those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word
takes care of all who are in need.
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is
the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter,
made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead.
For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the
day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His
apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to
you also for your consideration."
Sounds like church to me, wouldn’t you agree?
If we can see early members of the church observing Sunday worship, why would
it be necessary for the church to observe it today??
My belief is that God is sufficiently powerful to set in motion his plan for
his people, and that He is able to preserve His own plan it as it has always
been, as it always shall be.
D.c. Welker DC WELKER 1st
REBUTTLE
Why would anyone keep a day created by the beast when they admit it is their
change and believe they are above God's law. The Papacy believes it has the
authority to change God's law. Aside from Constantine I's decree to keep the
venerable Day of the Sun in accordance with worship of his pagan God Mithra,
The Roman Catholic Church created the original Canon for the church and made it
heretical to keep the Jewish Sabbath. This was at the Council of Laodicea in
364 AD: CANON XXIX.
CHRISTIANS must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that
day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as
Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema
from Christ.
Catholic Record specifically tackles the question: Why would ANY protestant
church endorse the day of worship created by the Roman Ctholic Church? From
Catholic Record " The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of
Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny
the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation
or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third -
Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." September 1st, 1923 edition of
The Catholic Record of London, Ontario, Canada, Volume XLV, #2342
Jesus Christ created ALL the commandments. It is his holy finger that wrote the
original 10 commandments on the tablets given to Moses on Mt. Sinai. He said
"If ye love me, keep my commandments"~John 14:15. Malachai 3:6
"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not
consumed.". Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and
today and forever." The commandments never changed, it was man that
changed God's laws. Woship everyday as we should, but do it in your homes.
Jesus went to Synagogue on the Sabbath. I live by his example.
Simon
Benn 1000 word rebuttal to DC's opening statement
DC, as you can see, makes some wonderful claims. For the most part his opening
statement is lacking in any proof or evidence to show his claim to be true. An
opinion may have some truth to it but it is not by necessity true. Let's
look at his subjective claims closely.
DC's claim that Jesus abolished the new moon Sabbath when he died, is not only
unbiblical but nothing more than DC's subjective opinion. To claim that Jesus
abolished a part of the Law would fly in the face of what we find in God's
word. Mathew 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to ABOLISH the Law or
the Prophets; I have NOT come to ABOLISH them but to FULFILL them. We see
Jesus' own words that He came to FULFILL the law and not to ABOLISH it which
would mean in any part. I can overlook DC's use of the word abolish, maybe he
used the wrong word to describe what he was trying to say, or maybe he just
doesn’t understand what scripture teaches, and why he holds to it being a
necessity for a church to hold worship on a Saturday.
There is a distinction between the holyday of the new moon and an actual
Sabbath. We see in Colossians 2:16 "Therefore no one is to act as your
judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a NEW MOON or
SABBATH DAYS": Scripture clearly makes a distinction between the new moon
Sabbath as DC talked about in his opening statement, and other Sabbath Days.
Notice the word Days is in plural suggesting that it included ALL other Sabbath
days not just a particular one that would fit a particular worldview. Also take
note that the verse starts with the word "Therefore", and when we see
this we should look to see what it is "there for"
This verse is tying in with the general theme from a few verses before, that
the certificate of debt, which is our sin, biblically defined as lawlessness, a
breaking of the law, that what was before, the Old covenant, that hard task
matter, that is the standard we were to maintain for righteousness of which NO
MAN has kept was NAILED TO THE CROSS.
James a Jew, who was familiar with the law states "Jas 2:10 For whoever
keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of
it." that all those who break just the smallest are guilty of breaking it
all. It was a standard that no man could keep. Except the Godman, Jesus. So if
keeping the Sabbath is a necessity for salvation, there can't be any person in
heaven except God, as we are guilty of breaking the whole law which would
include the Sabbath commandment.
Another Jew who was circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of
the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to
zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.
states Romans 14:5 “One man considers one day more sacred than another; another
man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own
mind.” the Sabbath observance is a matter of personal conviction not one of
necessity, would you trust Paul over DC, what about James or even Jesus who
never came to ABOLISH the law but FULFILL it?
In light of the scriptures that clearly show keeping the Sabbath is not a
matter of necessity, but that the Sabbath along with our debts, were nailed to
the cross, I can only wonder at how DC arrived at his claim.
If Christ died for all our sins, isn't not keeping the Sabbath also a sin?
Wouldn't that be covered under our debts being nailed to the cross? Or is it
all our sins, except for the Sabbath one? It makes no sense logically, and as
logic is found in reason and truth I can only presume that DC is left with a
logical fallacy and therefore his position isn't found in Christ.
DC must understand that the Sabbath, as we see in "Deu 5:15 'You shall
remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God
brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore
the LORD your God commanded you to observe the Sabbath day" was a day for
the Israelites in remembrance of their exodus from Egypt. It was an Israelite
tradition, so why would gentiles be expected to observe this? Wasn’t this a
part of the Old Covenant that God made with the Israelites?
Where do we see in scripture that the Sabbath was for worship? I see no command
but the one to rest on the Sabbath and to do no work. It was this Sabbath Rest
that was nailed to the cross. Scripture teaches the Sabbath Rest is Christ, we
now rest from trying to achieve what was before, unachievable, and rest in
Christ for He has accomplished what no man can do.
We also see in, Hebrews, (how ironic) "Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is
changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also". DC
recognizes that the priesthood HAS changed. The Levitical priesthood is no more
and the order of Melchizedeck is forever and ever. So in order to be
consistent, if there is a change in the priesthood we would expect a change OF
law. So how DC arrives at change of just SOME OF THE LAW is beyond me.
As we see that only 9 of the 10 commandments are reiterated in the NT, if we
look closely we see that the Sabbath is the one that is not reiterated.
Scripture and history both show that DC's position just isn't tenable. It not
only violates scripture on numerous occasions but also logic itself. If DC's
position, being illogical, and History with scripture are replete with early
church meetings on a Sunday, then in order to be consistent with scripture, and
to avoid being intellectually dishonest, one would have to reject DC's
position. You would have to accept that from the beginning of the NT church, it
worshipped on a Sunday and what better way to celebrate the Lords Day than to
worship the risen and glorious creator, Jesus Christ, amen.
DC Welker 2nd rebuttal
Simon Ben
assumes there is no scriptural evidence of the claim of the sanctuary. Let us
delve into scripture to pick apart this fallacy. If there was no sin before the
Laws were written on the tablets given to moses, Why did Abel sacrifice a lamb
to god and it was accepted and Caine sacrificed his best crops and it was not
accepted. God mde it clear in his covenant that sacrifice had to be done in
blood. There is no other way. The Lord told Moses, "Let them make me a
sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Exodus 25:8). God told Moses,
"According to all that I show thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle
[in heaven], and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye
make it" (Exodus 25:9).
Let's begin a brief tour through this unusual structure and learn a few basic
lessons before examining the deeper meanings of the sanctuary system.
The sanctuary consisted of three principal areas: the courtyard, the holy
place, and the most holy place. These three locations represent the three
primary steps in the process of salvation known as justification,
sanctification, and glorification, and they correspond with three phases of
Christ's ministry: the substitutionary sacrifice, the priestly mediation, and
the final judgment.
The holy of holies, the tabernacle's most sacred spot, represents the presence
of God. The walls around the courtyard and the holy place vividly illustrate
man's separation from God. "But your iniquities have separated between you
and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear"
(Isaiah 59:2). All of the sanctuary services represent a sinner's journey back
to God. In the first three chapters of the Bible, sin enters the world and man
is evicted from the garden of Eden. In the last three chapters, sin is
eradicated and man is restored to the garden and communion with God.
Just inside the holy place on the left (south) side, stood the golden menorah
that had seven candlestick branches (see Exodus 25:31-40). They were not wax
candles as we know them, but lamps fueled by pure olive oil. The priests
trimmed the wicks daily and refilled the bowls with oil so that the menorah
would constantly be a source of light for the holy place. Jesus said, "I
am the light of the world" (John 8:12).
He also said, "Ye are the light of the world" (Matthew 5:14). The
Olive oil in the lamps symbolized the Holy Spirit that illuminates the church.
The lamp is a symbol of the Word, as well (Psalm 119:105).
Opposite the lamp was the table of showbread on the north side. It was
constructed of acacia wood and covered with gold (Exodus 25:23-30). On it were
kept 12 loaves of unleavened bread (Leviticus 24:5-9). These loaves were
symbolic of Jesus, who is the Bread of Life (John 6:35). The number 12
signified the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles of Jesus who were to feed
God's people with the bread of life - which is also a symbol of the Bible
(Matthew 4:4).
The altar of incense was located directly across from the door standing against
the ornate veil that separated the holy place from the most holy place. Like
several other items in the sanctuary, it was also made of acacia wood and
covered with gold (Exodus 30:1-3). It was much small than the altar in the courtyard
and contained a brass pot that held hot coals from the brazen altar of burnt
offerings. It was here that the priest burned a very special blend of incense
which filled the sanctuary with a sweet-smelling cloud, representing the
prayers of intercession and confession of the believers sweetened by the Holy
Spirit (Exodus 30:8).
The Holy Place represents the process of sanctification. This corresponds to
the wilderness wanderings of Israel. The pillar of fire was their menorah, and
the manna was their showbread. The pillar of cloud was their cloud of incense.
Sanctification is the process in the Christian's life of learning to obey. It
is made up of a series of justifications. Each time we sin we ask for
forgiveness, and we are justified again. However, God offers more than
forgiveness when we confess. In 1 John 1:9, He promises us that, "If we
confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
It is that "cleansing from unrighteousness" that constitutes
sanctification. The key ingredients in our sanctification are a devotional life
in the Word, prayer, and witnessing. The sanctuary's bread, incense, and lamp
represent these elements.
This veil, or curtain, separating the holy and the most holy places of the
sanctuary has a great significance, because it was this veil that tore at the
very moment Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45).
His death symbolized the end of the need for the exclusive Levitical priesthood
to mediate between man and God.
The veil represents the body of Jesus (Hebrews 10:19,20). It was only by
passing through this veil that access was possible to the most holy place
(Hebrews 4:16). The tearing of the veil symbolized the death of the Lamb of
God, which now permits the believer in His atonement immediate access to the
most holy place through the new High Priest - Jesus Christ - the one and only
Mediator between man and God.
Volumes can be written on the parallels of the sanctuary and Jesus Christ. The
4th commandments is very clear (6 days thou shalt labor. On the 7th day thou
shalt rest and keep it holy). The new moon sabbath was not part of the 4th
commandment. It was part of the sanctuary covenant that was nailed to the cross
because Jesus already paid the price for our sins. He made it possible for us
to repent our sins without having the burden of animal sacrifice for atonement.
Simon Benn 1000 word second
rebuttal
A rebuttal is offered to counter the assertions made in your opponents opening
statement. We are yet to see DC do this. I would like to thank him for the
chance to post another rebuttal, to not only show the problems with hisfalse
view but to solidify what has always been from New Testament times. That the
church worshipped on a Sunday.
DC posted his second rebuttal built upon a false premise, he then, starting
from his false premise, attacked an assertion that I never stated. I would like
to encourage DC to not build upon straw man arguments as it makes for a better
discussion.
DC in his second rebuttal says " Simon Benn assumes there is no scriptural
evidence of the claim of the sanctuary." First I would like to point out
that I have never said anything as such as you can see from the previous posts.
In fact I am not even sure what that sentence is saying. A sanctuary is a
place, it isn't a living being and therefore has no mental capacity to make any
claims. So not only is this a straw man argument but also a logical
impossibility, as places do not make claims.
DC did ask "If there was no sin before the Laws were written on the
tablets given to Moses, Why did Abel sacrifice a lamb to god and it was
accepted and Cain sacrificed his best crops and it was not accepted."
Firstly I never claimed there was no sin before the law, we find in Romans 5:13
"for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not
counted where there is no law." Sin was not counted where there was no
law, that is what the scripture says, so again DC shows his misunderstanding of
Cain and Abel's sacrifice. They were not for sin, but they were as an offering
unto the Lord. They were offered by faith. Heb 11:4 "By faith Abel offered
to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as
righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts…" It was this
offering through faith that was the reason he was commended as righteous. It
wasn’t because he kept a law but because he acted in faith. Without faith it is
impossible to please God.
I will skip the rest of the comments on the sanctuary as I showed earlier this
was a straw-man and a rabbit trail not conducive to our topic.
DC also says " Sanctification is the process in the Christian's life of
learning to obey. It is made up of a series of justifications. Each time we sin
we ask for forgiveness, and we are justified again."
I would ask for scriptural support that states sanctification is us learning to
obey. I do find this sentence to be very telling, especially where it says
"we are justified again."
To be justified again means every time you sin you have lost your salvation and
managed to regain it. Justified in layman's terms means, it is
"Just-as-if-I'd" never sinned. How God sees the true believer who
walks by faith. If we could lose our salvation as DC claims, then he just made
Jesus a liar where He says ALL that the father has given him will come to Him
and HE LOSES none. John 3:16 that whoever believes in him should not perish but
have eternal life. How do you believe in Him, have eternal life, yet still
believe and because of sin you don’t have eternal life? You either HAVE it or
you DON'T. DC is also saying that Jesus' sacrifice just isn't enough to get you
righteous, you have to "help" Jesus get you righteous, it’s a very
similar claim to the Catholics with Mary. Its Jesus plus something else. That's
why I posted Colossians 2:14-16 in my previous rebuttal. Your sins along with
the Sabbath are either nailed to the cross when Jesus died, or as DC would have
to admit, they weren't and you have to confess them to get forgiveness. If you
have confessed ALL your sins are you truly right again with God. You could lose
your salvation right after you have just finished confessing them all. You
could miss one, you could confess them all and die in a car crash on your way
to work, have a bad thought and lose your salvation. I'd rather rest in my
Sabbath rest that is Christ, than to spend all my time wondering if I missed a
sin or did I repent enough, was it sincere, if so why do I keep sinning???
The biblical definition of sanctification is " The generic meaning of
sanctification is "the state of proper functioning." To sanctify
someone or something is to set that person or thing apart for the use intended
by its designer" The Greek word translated "sanctification"
(hagiasmos) means "holiness." To sanctify, therefore, means "to
make holy."
DC in his last paragraph says" The new moon Sabbath was not part of the
4th commandment." I agree it wasn’t hence why I posted Colossians 2:14-16.
It's dealing with all our sins. It also has Sabbath in plural, meaning ALL
Sabbaths were nailed to the cross. He continues "It was part of the
sanctuary covenant that was nailed to the cross because Jesus already paid the
price for our sins." This last part contradicts his own view showing major
confusion on his part. He stated that each time we ask forgiveness, we are
justified again. Either Jesus paid the price for all our sins or He didn't.
Scripture teaches, Heb 9:28 "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away
the sins of many", true believers are always justified and DC then does
not understand 1 John 1:9. As he is setting scripture against scripture. DC has
no consistency and obvious contradictions, meaning I can only assume he holds a
view born out of confusion, lack of understanding and that is why He feels
obligated to maintain his justification by works by worshipping on a Saturday
only.
At this point DC did
decide to forfeit the debate;
Simon Benn My
closing statement
I would like to thank DC for participating the little that he did, and for
trying to establish why he held that the Sabbath was necessary for the Church.
I would also like to thank
Dan
Peterman for moderating and putting a lot oftime and energy into
making this go as smooth as he did.
It is unfortunate that DC did feel slighted in his debate with
Dan on
the sovereignty of God, especially after DC had agreed to debate this topic
publicly. The debate did result in a lot of logical fallacies as you can see he
did with this debate. There were also strawmen arguments which DC built in
order to make himself sound capable at debate but in reality he was arguing
against points no one held to.
The idea of debate is a healthy one, it isnt for the thin skinned as
conversation tends to be very direct. But it was this kind of discussion that
helped me turn away from Atheism and eventually to Christianity and the truth.
Debate can challenge a view you hold, it also helps to either strengthen your
view as you tear down strongholds, or it shows you how incorrect your view is
so you can gain the truth, this is what happened to me and why I no longer hold
to Atheism.
It has become a great way to grow in truth and I thank my brothers and sisters
along the way who have enabled me to grow in my christian understanding. This
is how debate, I believe can benefit everyone if you are humble enough to see
your errors, you are honest enough to not be intellectually dishonest and can
see the problems poised by others.
The Sabbath, being necessary for the church to keep was one such debate. I have
spent hours in debating this topic to see if I what I held was just
"tradition" or if a Sunday observance of church was rooted in
propositions of substance and ultimately scripture, if you wouldnt mind I would
like to share these views below.
Simon Benn For
DC and others who share his view, I would encourage them to find like minded
souls, like myself, to debate with to talk to so that they too can be, with an
open honest mind, challenged so they grow in the truth as we are all asked to
do. Friend me and I will dialogue.
DC as with others claim that the Sabbath observance was changed by the Roman
Catholic Church. DC called them "the beast" and though I wasn't
debating who the beast is, I will go with DC's claim of who the beast is. So
did they really change the day?
As you can see in my opening statement I showed that Emperor Constantine
declared Sunday the official day with which the church would gather, not
because he changed it as there is no record of any day being observed, but that
Sunday was already being observed as the day that the church gathered.
As Rome was slowly turning from its paganism towards Christianity there was NO
OBSERVANCE as an "official" day of worship by the Pagans. They had no
weekly observance of a day of rest, a day when no work was done, no business
traded yet the Christians did. It was Constantine, in order to gain popularity
declaring Sunday as a day that was ALREADY observed, being recognized as the
official Day of rest for Rome. I can provide showing no official day was
observed by any pagan belief in Rome at that time.
To state that the Beast (The RCC) changed the day is not only inaccurate but
also dishonest. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist at the time of
Constantine this was something that grew out of the local Bishoprick over time
AFTER Constantine. The church wasn't centralized to Rome but was in the true
sense of the word "catholic" meaning it was universal.
There is also a misconception that because the day is called SUNday it was
obviously a pagan holiday. By that logic then worshiping on a SATURday would
also be pagan as it was SATURNS day. The name of the day has no significance to
whether something IS or ISN'T pagan.
I can also show from scripture that on The Lords Day, Sunday, the church
gathered together, broke bread, had communion, had a collection, worshiped God
and taught one another as we see being done today. This is recorded in Acts as
the earliest account of the NT church not to mention the countless records from
the Church Fathers, The Didache that also attest to this always being the case.
Scripturally we see the reason for the Sabbath is not as most people believe.
Because God rested so He made the Sabbath Holy. That is not the reason, but it
is the Model. The reason is given in Deuterony 5:12 ‘Observe the sabbath day to
keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor
and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male
servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle
or your sojourner who [k]stays with you, so that your male servant and your
female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a
slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a
mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded
you to observe the sabbath day.
The reason for the Sabbath was to remember that the Jews were slaves in Egypt,
and to rest in remembrance of this great work that God did. This was for teh
Jews only, and those who lived with the Jews. Gentiles who lived outside of
Jewish cities were not required to keep the Sabbath. Why is the Sabbath the
only one of the ten commandments that are said to be "throughout your
generations", the usual phrase that indicates it was a temporary
ceremonial law only for the Jews?
Simon Benn Someone
did ask what did Jesus do?
Again we must turn to scripture as our authority on this, Did Jesus keep the
Sabbath? Yes of course he did, but He was accused by the Jews of breaking it.
The command was to rest. The Jews created amongst themselves a list of
what was work so they could "keep" the Sabbath. They added to what
God said.
But if we are to follow Jesus in keeping the Sabbath, I ask where was teh
command that we should only worship on a Saturday as have not come across this
verse yet.
If we must follow the example of Jesus in all things like keeping the Sabbath,
then it begs the question why do you not follow the example of Jesus in
circumcision, animal sacrifices and keeping Passover?
Simon Benn Other
verses in scripture not only show the illogic side of Sabbath keeping but show
how that view cannot keep to what scripture says, So if these verses say what
they say, then why do Sabbatarians contradict them?
If God says it was for Israel only why do people insist gentiles keep it?
Exodus 31:16-17 “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to
observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is
a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD
made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was
refreshed.”
Ezekiel 20:12 emphasizes: Moreover also I gave them (Israel) my Sabbaths, to be
a sign between me and them”
When Scripture says God will end the Sabbath between himself and Israel, then
who re-instigated what God had put to death?
Hos 2:11 "I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new
moons, her Sabbaths And all her festal assemblies.
The Jewish
believers of the first century church were never commanded to teach the
gentiles to obey this day.
Acts 15:28-29: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay
upon you no greater burden than: these essentials: that you abstain from things
sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from
fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do
well."
This is why in James 2 it says: “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet
stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”
As we see
from scripture God established a covenant with his people, a legal contract,
basically the Law. He also for teh Jews established a priesthood, the Levitical
priesthood. But as we no longer have the levitical priesthood, as that was
changed when Jesus became our high priest FOREVER after the ORDER OF
MELCHIZEDECK.
Heb 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a
change of law also.
To be consistent with this verse you have to admit that the Sabbath which was a
law under the Levitical Priesthood, must also of changed in order to be
consistent??
There is so
much more to say on this subject but I will close with this. The Jews tried to
work for their righteousness by keeping the law. Yet as we know no one, strive
as they may, was able to keep the Law. We also know Heb 10:4 For it is
impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. No matter
the sacrifices they made, their sins were not taken away. Jesus came and
fulfilled that law, He did not abolish it as DC claimed, but because he has
fulfilled it He shares it with his sheep. We can rest in Jesus, we can no
longer work towards our righteousness as everything has been done by him. Do
not subject yourselves to keeping the law again, as we would be no different
than the Roman Catholics who state that we must keep the the ten commandments
to be saved,which makes the death of Jesus just not good enough for our
salvation. I trust in Him, I enter into His rest, after He had offered one
sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right of God" Hebrews 10:12,
He is resting as "It is finished" and I choose to put my faith in Him
what He has done as I contribute nothing to my salvation but my sin making the
need for my Saviour.
